bluegreen17 | postcard from purgatory

postcard from purgatory

yes,i'm still here. they frisked me at the door,took away my sense of humor and told me god didnt want to listen or respond to me,but a friend smuggled in a wee bit of my sense of humor in a cake...the guards removed the nail file but didn't detect the funny bone,lucky for me.

today i got an email from my sister lise saying her husband has been offered an excellent job,with excellent pay and a shorter commute. he was laid off just before christmas (evil former employers!). i was happy to hear some good news,but a bit bitter too,because god likes THEM...i guess because they go to church and i'm jealous. i don't think god is very nice to ignore good hearted decent people like myself just because i've got a problem with religion. hell,wasn't hitler religious? what about saddam hussein? being religious alone does not make you a good person. this is in part what bothers me:

hello all,
just wanted to let you know that byron got a verbal offer from westinghouse and we hope that he will be back to work in a couple of weeks! this is a great relief to us and we're grateful to god that he's provided for all our needs these past four months.

i'm glad he's at least taking care of them.

honestly,i am happy for them and happy for the good news. this is what i wrote back:

hi lise,
glad to hear the great news! it sounds like they really value him and the pay and the commute will be better! well,alright!
love yas,
di

you see,i'm not totally evil. sour grapes? ha,no worse...vinegar.

i'm just becoming a reluctant atheist. it's hard to believe in a god who doesn't seem to believe in you. (though i think i should still watch out for those lightning bolts today.)

mood: mad at god for ignoring me.

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As an agnostic myself, I can't say a lot of things about keeping the faith and such.
But I can relate to the feeling of being ignored by [enter diety here], or feeling that [said diety] must actually hate me if [diety] exists at all.

But much of the time, after days, weeks, sometimes years pass, I start to see the ways that [diety] may have been touching my life in ways I just wasn't prepared or able to see at the time.
My guess is that the same will be for you.

*warm hugs*

thank you. as i said in my note below to jayteeone,i haven't given up! i want to be wrong in my perceptions in this case!

i am grateful to both of you for your thoughtfulness in leaving me notes.

Perhaps if you tried getting to know God instead of shunning Him, because humans did atrocious things in His name. Remember we go through tough times to toughen us. Perhaps He's teaching you lessons and you're not paying attention.

uh oh. you said the wrong thing but i'm sure your intentions were good.

the reason i say that is because i haven't been shunning god. i feel s/he has been shunning me. i've tried desperately to communicate. i've been met with silence. horrible silence.

my grandmother used to say that hell would be if you died and couldn't see the face of jesus. i agree with her,though maybe not so much in the specifics. hell is separation,particularly separation from god. i feel like i've been abandoned. a lot of people dont' even care,i suspect. i do. i want to have a relationship with god. i want there to be a god.

yes,i may be getting lessons...though that brings up the whole 'why does god let us suffer so much'. of course,that's incredibly complicated. i'm almost done reading harold kushner's -why bad things happen to good people-. he has some good points. and the jury is still out. i haven't given up on god,and i hope someday to understand why s/he seems to have abandoned me. in this case,i want to be wrong. i have been trying to find someone who could convince me that god exists and i am still seeking.i haven't given up yet!

sorry,you just touched a nerve. but i think it is because reading this post might have given you the impression *i* was shunning god,but i'm not.

tough times to toughen us? well,i've gotten very close to bitter,so if i don't get removed from the 'fire' soon i will be too tough. or i will just fall apart. mixing my analogies,sorry.

thank you for your note. i know you are a thoughtful person. i feel better today,but i am still trying to work things out in my mind and heart,so i don't have more to say right now. i'll just say that i haven't totally given up yet.

: )

Gosh, you sure sound unhappy. I'm sorry for you. Sounds like your BIL and his wife have made a habit of depending on God and He is blessing them. But don't forget they had to endure four months of trusting Him. That's the kind of trust God loves to see.

You know, God HAS been taking care of you: are you starving? wearing rags? without a roof over your head? without family that love you? In all these ways God is reaching out to you. But seems as though you're thinking that these things are your doing. The people of God know better.

You see, your BIL and his family have made God their priority: what God wants them to do they are ready to do, even if it seems weird to everyone else. Those who do not belong to God aren't ready to do His will first. They spend their lives fighting Him off, not realising this simple truth: "Seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all other things will also be given to you."

God longs to give you many good things. But right now, you wouldn't know they were from Him. Why not entrust the direction of your life to Him? Let Him make of it anything He wants. I did it 22 years ago, figuring that if a mess was made of my life worse than it already was, I could blame Him. So I told Him that I was willing to put Him to the test. I waited to see what He would do. And while I waited I watched. I'd told Him I would read the Bible, ask all the honest questions of Christians I wanted and try to do things His way, that I would for awhile simply assume He was there as the Bible said. I told Him how unhappy I was, what a predicament I was in, and all the junk in my life that I hated about myself. Well, He did act. It was as if we had a secret little pact between us. Like a lover, He did things for me no one else could have done, once I put Him first. If He could do the things He did for me, I knew that certainly He could forgive my sins and take away my shrivelled up heart and give me a new one. Looking at me, you wouldn't know what He had done for me, but I'll tell you...when He does it for YOU then you'll know.

I sure hope you'll look into it, 'reluctant atheist'! I think God is putting into you a powerful desire to know that you are as deeply cared for as your BIL and his family. The joy of belonging to God is unbelievable.

don't know if you'll be back to read this. i dont like preachy christians. doesn't mean i don't love you.

i was raised catholic. i was later on 'born again' not as a catholic but as a christian. i am constantly giving my life to god and asking what his/her will is.

some things have not worked. anyway,being mad at god at least means i care. and this is between him/her and me. though of course i did write this in a public post and did want feedback,so that's fine.

god knows why i'm angry. god gave me this personality. god gave me many things. i do say thank you a lot. you wouldnt know that from just reading this post.

anyway,though i don't like being preached at,i do try to give people the benefit of the doubt that they mean well when i can. my sisters have been praying for my catholic mothers soul for years. they think because she isn't a protestant 'born again' jesus will not save her. that is very upsetting for my mother,a good person who loves god. (and god knows it.)

don't get me started about the 'saving' bit. any god of love will save everyone,no exceptions. that's what unconditional love is. that's what some christians who interpret the bible certain ways don't 'get'. the exclusiveness and snobbery of the 'left behind' message is anti-christian. many christians don't follow the example of jesus at all. jesus didn't preach to the prostitutes and tax collectors and tell them they were going to hell. he simply loved them.

thank you for your good intentions and for taking the time to write me a note.

...and the preachers and the tax collectors were thrilled, not angry. They followed Him amd did not continue to sin... Yes, of course God loves you. God is love. God is also Holy, Holy, Holy: He is the One in control, the control you want.

Unconditional love can mean allowing you to go your own way until you realise you are in a dead end in it, and waiting with His outstretched hand when you are ready to listen to His Word. I think you are angry at God becuase He is not the God *you* want. He is always ready to forgive, but He *will* have the lead. Like an unbroken young horse, you are angry because you will not submit- not realising that the broken horse is the one who enjoys the love and guidance of the Master, and has the closest bond with Him. He loves spirit, not anger- let Him transform you. He continues to hold the line, in love, while you buck. I pray you will not reject His loving hand always.

okay. thanks for not responding to my anger with anger. i admire you for that.

you have some good points there,in your second note. i will give them thought. i just have a problem with christians who think they are the only ones who can interpret and know who god is. only god can know that,and we shouldn't presume to know everything and have all the answers.
thank you for your patience,
diane

no problem...do you mind if I look in and comment as a Christian from time to time? I don't know how old you are but I might just be old enough to be your mother! :>D

i doubt you're old enough to be my mother,since the demographic on livejournal is pretty young and i'm 44. which brings up the point...do you have a livejournal? how did you find my post?

if you want to know anymore about me,you could check out my userinfo page. i assume you may have not looked at that because it has my birthdate on it.

'commenting as a christian'? hmmm...what does that mean? why would you want to do that? well,perhaps if you read my userinfo or some of my other posts,you might not want to. i'm a person who does a lot of questioning,seeking,etc. and i don't tend to take things simply...i delve into things.being this way has it's good and bad points.

generally,i consider myself agnostic...i guess using the term 'getting to be a reluctant atheist' may not have been the best choice of words,since i don't think you can prove that things don't exist just because you don't see them.

from my experience over time,i have seen that christianity as well as other religions have sometimes been a good influence in the world,but also sometimes a terribly bad influence. (ex: christianity's crusades and the inquisition and fundamentalist muslims' jihads).

i like the recent slogan that a website came up with-'who would jesus bomb?' i dont' understand how george w. can make such an issue of his christianity and be so eager to wage war. gandhi practiced better christianity than bush...and of course gandhi wasn't even a christian.
the onion,which is humor site with fictitious 'articles', sometimes conveys more truth and in a more concise manner than the major media.

shortly after 9/11,they had an article with god saying 'which part of thou shalt not kill do you not understand?

i can't quote many bible passages,but i've read the bible many times over the years. i was also raised catholic,been to quite a few different christian churches,fundamentalist and not,and been an amateur scholar of religions over the years,so that's where i'm coming from.

I didn't mean to preach, and I'm sorry if I got some things wrong. As you know my life has not been the easiest. It is only now that I have muddled my way through with te support of friends and family(I include you in the friends section) that I have made it to where I am right now. Friends are one of the greatest gifts God gives us, granted they didn't do Job much good, but God straightened that out in the end. God and I talk all the time. We yell at each other, question each other, and in essence learn to live in context with each other. Sometimes it's not that we aren't listening to God or that God isn't talking to or responding to us, it's that our attitude gets in teh way of hearing what God is really trying to say. I know this particular one because that happens between God and me all the time.

I don't call myself a Christian, I call myself a student(disciple) of Jesus. I tend to stick to the first three Gospels, and I try to live what Jesus taught, and not hit other people over the head with it. I'm just trying to share with you what has worked for me, that's all, nothing more. Good luck in your search, I hope you find what you're looking for.

i'm sorry if i hurt your feelings with my response. that was definitely not my intention.

i really like that you consider yourself a disciple of jesus. i think he was a model of what we can be. i don't think christianity for the most part follows what he was trying to convey,though there are many good people who are christians.

i would like to know more about how you got to this relationship with god or more about how it is for you,if you're interested in writing about that more.

thanks for the book recommendation. i read lewis's 'mere christianity' many years ago and was very impressed with it. overall,i like c.s. lewis...loved some of the narnia books as well...though i never liked the concept of 'the screwtape letters'. i'll take a look at 'the great divorce'. we probably have a copy at my store,but if not i'm sure it's easy to find one at the library or to order one to look at. i was always impressed that it seemed to me that lewis was a thinking person who chose christianity and could explain his reasons for it very lucidly. i guess i can appreciate writers of intelligent (and yes,there are different kinds of intelligence...i think logic is only part of that,and i say that because i think intuition conveys great wisdom sometimes.) apologetics. one of my best friends used to be an episcopal priest who converted to catholicism because it's more conservative. he and i see things quite differently and yet we have some very interesting but civil discussions.

anyway,thanks.
diane

A book that really helped me put my beliefs in perspective was "The Great Divorce" by C.S. Lewis. It's simple, but hey so am I.

What would it take for you to sense that God isn't shunning you?

i'm just becoming a reluctant atheist. it's hard to believe in a god who doesn't seem to believe in you. (though i think i should still watch out for those lightning bolts today.)

Become one then.. i know god has been ignoring me...But since i don't worship the christain god maybe that's why... I chose to except that the earth and the sun are what made us what and who we are...

I have watched the earth breathe and sigh and give life and take it... the same with the sun... Our planet is alive and she's rather pissed off...

I'm not preaching and i'm not saying that you shouldn't beleive in the Christain God.. I'm just giving you a veiw from the other side of the fence...

and since i don't beleive in Hell when somebody tells me I'm going there cause i'm not christain ... I just remind them that If I don't believe in a place i can't go there can i...

If you wanna know whena and why this happened i'd be happy to explain... just ask... ^_^

Bayless wrote,

and since i don't beleive in Hell when somebody tells me I'm going there cause i'm not christain ... I just remind them that If I don't believe in a place i can't go there can i...

Anon

Do you apply this methodology to other areas?

If you don't believe London is it not there?

If you don't believe in automobiles is it impossible to get
run over?

Belief doesn't make or unmake reality. Since reality is ... belief should correspond to that reality ... Whatever it is.

good questions and good points. you might want to read my comment to bayliss.

the hindus believe that all life is maya...illusion. so reality may not be what we think it is. ultimately,i just don't know. i think the native americans called god 'the great mystery' for good reason. i don't see how we can possibly comprehend and know all there is to know about god or anything...

what is reality? what is truth?
and how do we know that the christian bible or the torah or the koran is the word of god? my opinion is that we dont' know anything for sure. that doesn't mean we cant choose to have faith and practice a religion,but that is not the same as certainty.

Hello Moonriver,

I thought I would chat with you a little bit. I do so hope that I don't come across preachy. Sometimes I can get carried away by the incredibly awesome God of the Bible. Please forgive me in advance if I overstep propriety. I will try not to.

You wrote,

the hindus believe that all life is maya...illusion. so reality may not be what we think it is.

Anon

If this is so then how do they know for sure that their illusion isn't an illusion? Maybe what they take for an illusion is really reality.

Moonriver,

ultimately,i just don't know. i think the native americans called god 'the great mystery' for good reason. i don't see how we can possibly comprehend and know all there is to know about god or anything...

Anon,

This is a great point!! I know for a fact that Christians (I am a disciple of Jesus Christ) don't believe that they can possibly comprehend and know all there is to know about God or indeed anything. Concerning God Christians are fond of citing the Latin phrase ... "Finitum non capax infinitum." (Translate; the finite can not contain the infinite.) Therefore you already hold to a Christian belief.

But having admitted God being a great mystery is not the same as admitting that though we can't know all there is to know concerning God that doesn't mean we can't genuinely know some things about God that He has chosen to reveal. Indeed Scripture teaches that the hidden things belong to God but the revealed things belong to us. Therefore Scripture agrees with you on this subject.

Moonriver,

what is reality? what is truth?

Anon

The Scripture teach that Jesus Christ is the truth and that God has made Himself known in Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is God's face to the World.

Reality is what God determines it to be. And the fact that we have such a hard time with that reality may be indicative of the fact that we will not bow the knee to God's way. God has said that reality is one way and we insisting that we want to be our own gods say ... 'no reality is what I determine it to be.' If this is so then in a certain limited sense your earlier mentioned Hindus may be correct in noting that much of life is an illusion ... an illusion of our own God defying making. It is something to think about at least.

Hello,

Just a little more. I get to wordy I know. Thanks for your patience with my excitement.

Moonriver,

and how do we know that the christian bible or the torah or the koran is the word of god? my opinion is that we dont' know anything for sure.

Anon,

At the very least Moonriver you know that you don't know anything for sure and I would contend if you can know that you can't know anything for sure then it is reasonable to contend that one can know that God was in Christ reconciling the World unto Himself. Now at this point we need to examine our contradictory claims to certainty. But not in this post.

In terms of which Holy Book is THE Holy Book I can only offer you that Scripture is self-attesting. It alone can make sense of Truth, Reality, The Good, and The Beautiful. It alone is without contradiction (though there are indeed apparent contradictions and mysteries to deep for us to understand). But it would take some time and exposure before you might come to that conclusion.

Moonriver,

that doesn't mean we cant choose to have faith and practice a religion,but that is not the same as certainty.

Anon,

But you are practicing certainity. You are certain that you can't be certain and you are placing your Faith in that and the religion that devolves from that conviction. Even the Skeptic is certain of a good deal.

Moonriver wrote to di,

no,no,no...i don't want to become an atheist. in fact,that was a poor choice of words on my part. i don't believe (ha ha) in atheism because i don't think you can prove god doesn't exist. i've just been distraught because i feel a seperation from god.

Anon,

Moonriver, the God of the Bible is even now exposing Himself to you yet again. This separation that you lament can be ended. The Scripture say that those who come to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him. If you are intent on seeing this separation end then the God of all the Universe is intent on receiving you for the sake of Jesus Christ. Do you want to converse more on how to end this very real sundering that you sense?

Moonriver

does hell exist if you don't believe in it? it might but i'm hoping a loving god wouldn't send anyone to hell,or even let them go there of their own misguided free will. that's why i like the bodhisattva vow...to remain until all are saved.

Anon,

You are right again ... God is a God of Love. But He is also a God of Justice. You wouldn't think a Judge to be loving were he pronounce not guilty upon a known child murderer and yet God is to be seen less than loving all because He visits sin worse than human crimes with Just consequences?

Oh, Moonriver, the Love of God is so vast and so marvelous. His Love is great without measure. His Love is so great that He would rather bear the punishment against sin in Himself than levy its consequences on all those who deserve it. But I don't want to overwhelm you so I will stop there in recording the great depths of God's incredible overwhelming yet Just and Holy Love.

hi di!

no,no,no...i don't want to become an atheist. in fact,that was a poor choice of words on my part. i don't believe (ha ha) in atheism because i don't think you can prove god doesn't exist. i've just been distraught because i feel a seperation from god. and being agnostic...not knowing...means sometimes i think god doesn't exist,but that doesn't make me an atheist,i don't think. words are tricky. even if it did make me an atheist,the minute i'd have a shred of hope i'd be out of the atheist camp,because i don't want to be one.

i'm sorry you feel god has been ignoring you too. it doesn't feel good and i dont' pretend to understand very much. sometimes i know for short periods of time...an inner knowing...but i can't honestly say whether that is valid or not. it's hard to even express these sorts of things in words.

personally,i think god is the sun and moon and earth and trees and...everything. the planet may or may not be a seperate entity named gaia. in any event,i think she will survive,but we may become extinct on this planet. i entertain a lot of weird notions,including the possibility of higher dimensions and beings at a higher frequency than we are.
years ago someone explained why you couldn't see angels. they are at a higher frequency...meaning their atoms are spinning faster or something like that...and it's like a fan at high speed...you can't see the blades because they are going so fast but they are still there.

hell,i think,is a state of mind. i think life is sometimes hell. i think it's all very complicated.

does hell exist if you don't believe in it? it might but i'm hoping a loving god wouldn't send anyone to hell,or even let them go there of their own misguided free will. that's why i like the bodhisattva vow...to remain until all are saved.

and physicists have a theory that we as observers create the universe,so possibly if you don't believe in hell it doesn't exist. see,i just dont know. there are many things i don't know.

yes,i'd like to hear why and when this happened to you,so spill!

looking forward to hearing from you again!
di

I'll be posting a reply on my journal to this ... So i can put a friends only lock on it... I don't really want just anybody reading it... it's really personal...

Al though i will say this in the open... a loving Christain God would not.. *I repeat* would not allow Hell to be there... he would forgive ALL and allow ALL in to heaven...

Thus why i believe Hell does not exist....

If God were to allow All into Heaven he would have to quit being God since God is by definition not only Loving but also Righteous, Holy and Just. For God to allow Joseph Stalin (as one example) into His Heaven is akin to a earthly Judge letting a child molesting murderer off without punishment since the Judge loves the child molester so much.

The discerning righteous love of God is different than the undiscerning unrighteous love of a harlot.

Does that make sense?

hi anon,

if you got your own livejournal,you could write more about your beliefs and it would be easier for people to respond to individual posts that you make rather than discussing things in a long thread like this has become.
also,you can join communities and discuss things there.
just a suggestion.
diane

Forgive me for trying to offer some answers to interact with.

Anon

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postcard from purgatory

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Not believing it makes it not so?

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Chit Chat

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Hey Bay

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OK ... Out of here