bluegreen17 | shoulds and suggestions

shoulds and suggestions

a kind of weird but good thing i've noticed:

i've been trying for quite a while to eliminate my evening sugary snack.mostly i end up eating one anyway,as by evening i've lost resolve or something.

well,last night instead of saying in my head 'i shouldn't eat that' i said something like 'how about if i skip my snack this evening?' a suggestion,not a demand. and last night i skipped the snack and didn't feel too horribly deprived. though,it could have been that i had slightly more protein than usually for supper. or maybe a combination of both.

i'm intrigued by the whole subject of suggestion in leiu of 'shoulds'. since i'm naturally rebellious,i know that i respond much better to a boss who asks or suggests that i do something. i dont' like being told what to do. so i suppose it stands to reason that the same approach might work when dealing with myself.

it makes defining 'self' rather nebulous...as in who is the *I* that is talking to the self? and which is me? well,both,i suppose. i don't tend to obsess over things quite that abstract though. i obsess over not feeling the presence of God in the world,which is just as heavy-duty,or really more so,and yet more straightforward than defining the self.

as i mentioned to cattleprod on blurty earlier today,my fretting over whether i know that God is there or even exists is possibly like someone looking for their glasses and not realizing they're wearing them, or a fish looking for water.

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The concept of the negative requires first contemplation of the positive.

For example, tell yourself not to eat a twinkie, and to process the thought, you have to think about eating a twinkie to understand what not to do.

So everytime you tell yourself to not do something, you force yourself to think of what you're not doing, and it creates a feeling of deprivation, like you're missing something good.

Sounds like you've founf a way around that. Way to go. :)

i discover some good things 'accidentally'.

suggestion,for me,seems to remove resistance. and resisting anything gives it energy,so...

the forbidden fruit is much harder to resist than the optional fruit!

anyway,i am pleased when i am gifted with an insight.

the way one self-talk does seem to make a big difference. I like that glasses analogy.

God desires to be found. He is hidden in the world certainly, but we fail to see Him because He has clothed Himself with His own creation. The universe is the clothing He wears. Yes the world is unfair and unjust, and God allows it, but He allows it to see if we'll try and right it ourselves. And the way we right it is through the choices we make. Of course science can't see God because it isn't really looking for Him.

Of course science can't see God because it isn't really looking for Him.

ah,but i think many scientists found Him anyway...as you said,einstein and jung,for two!
: )

in fact,i think sometimes i look for God too intently,and miss what is right in front of my nose,and once i give up,i get this little tap on my shoulder...hello! i'm right here!

i don't think i totally agree with your theology here,but that's okay. i dont' think it would be fair of God to let things get messed up by one person just to see if the other will fix it. i don't think God is testing us like that. i could be wrong,of course,but i think there's another explanation.

namaste,
di

Pardon me for intruding, but I can't resist. I read your posts alot and they are always intriguing.This latest thread about where God is and the search for Him/Her/It is one I can't resist. I believe that God is more akin to Universal Intelligence or Consciousness than a being with a rather capricious personality. I agree that God clothes itself in it's creation because God made everything out of Itself.What else was there before Creation? Only God right?Therefore, simple logic suggests we are made of God stuff like the stars and the earth and even the gnats and fleas. Thus I am by my very nature divine and in fact already one with God. I need do nothing except become aware of this fact. Perhaps this is what was meant by the biblical phrase "the kingdom of god is within you." My personal spiritual experience is directly related to the degree of this awareness. When i get caught up in thinking god isn't right here but is somehow out there, my life suffers, my experiences become less enjoyable and I often lose my sense of vitality and joy. The old beliefs that keep me feeling unworthy are all that stand between me and my God. My work is to clear out the old beliefs that prevent me from living fully in joy. And it is what I believe that creates my distress or joy NOT anything Spirit has done.
Any way.. I hope this doesnt sound to preachy or something, just thought I'd add my 2 cents.

you're not intruding,this is a public thing!
it's very possible that in the act of looking for God,i overlook God. sometimes i really try too hard,i think.

just today i was feeling like i never love anyone or anything enough...because i don't know anyone i would go through hell for. i wont' say lay down my life for because i often feel that life is more painful than death would be...so that wouldnt sound right. then again,having just written that,i do live for my family...when i've felt suicidal i HAVE gone through hell for them,just by hanging in. well,it's nice that your thoughts prompted that thought and insight. thanks!

i also think i don't love myself enough nor do i love God enough. but in a sense,if i love my family,i do love God. does that make sense? part of the reason i've been studying 'process new thought' lately is that,at least symbolically,they see God as being very personal. i guess i need or at least want my vision of God to be personal...otherwise it just doesn't work too well for me.

for instance,i don't know if you've ever heard the phrase 'god is my co-pilot'? i can relate to that better,though more like i'm God's co-pilot unless the co-pilot is the mentor,the wiser one.

now this may be silly,but i'll share this with you. yesterday i had to take an alternative route to work and i wasn't too thrilled because the road is really crappy.lots of potholes,uneven paving,etc. i'm sensitive about all kinds of things and roads are one of them! but i had resigned myself to it and didn't fret too much.

well,i turned onto the road and saw that it had been recently paved. how lovely! but i also thought it was probably just a small section. nevertheless,i was grateful for that bit. well....it went on and on and on....i kept driving,and it was all paved. i was delighted,it was so wonderful. about halfway through,there were signs that said 'uneven road'. this was because after this only one half of the road was paved...and guess what? it was the side of the road that i was driving on! so i just HAD to thank you God for that,it was such a nice gift. it seems silly to think God did that for me,but in another sense i have to chuckle,because it was the perfect gift for me. that's the weird kind of relationship i have with God. of course,i always want more,and i'm never satisfied,but i am also grateful for the little everyday gifts i get. sometimes i'm leaving home and almost forget something and for some reason my eyes will fall upon i before i get out the door. then i usually laugh and say 'thanks' to God for reminding me.

yes,i do little things like that. i don't know how ultra-weird that is or what.
it's just some sort of instinct with me. that's when i feel the presence of God,when i'm not even trying to or paying any particular attention to God. which seems to be the opposite of what people say it 'works'.
sometimes i'll sit and try to meditate and connect with God and...nothing.

stuff like this...having a relationship with God that seems to be the antithesis of what all the experts say...is just one reason i feel like the opposite of everyone else.

another metaphysical principle is that you get what you expect. what happens to me is that when i expect good stuff,i'm almost always disappointed,because i invariably set my sights too high. other times,i expect nothing and am pleasantly surprised. this appears to go against this principle. maybe there's something i'm missing though. it frustrates me because i want to realize TRUTH. and sometimes my very intuition seems to go against established and recognized principles.

if you have any further thoughts,feel free to share. you've left me notes before but i've never been able to leave you notes because you haven't written any entries! i'll stop by and check again to see if you have.

thanks for sharing your thoughts and commenting!

I think you are right about God being personal too. I have a very hard time relating to an impersonal Universal Principle, so I do the same thing you do..Talk to God like my friend, especially in traffic. I have always had an intuitive relationship with God too, and I often get myself in trouble with "established and recognized principles" Maybe the point is to learn to trust that intuitive knowing? I too spend days in that funky questioning..like God is more present in the daily little moments than in those times I meditate. I always wonder if I'm not getting it or just too damn honest to BS about my experiences. I tend to be an iconoclast and I really get riled up over pretentious people who claim enlightenment while engaging in judgemental attitudes. There is nothing more offensive than saying "God is everywhere and in everyone but I'm more evolved or connected or saved than you." In my opinion every one of us has a unique God, one that exists just for us and no one else. each of us are the Beloved of God because each of us has a unique conception of it. MY relationship to the Divine will probably not satisfy or even seem real to someone else, while theirs may be equally frustrating for me to relate to. I think that God is bigger and broader than any one of us can conceive of, and yet resides entirely within and AS us.Each created thing is Divine and Holy, and intuition or coincidence is gods anonimity. Those nudges of intuition may truly be that "still small voice" the mystics have written about in every religion. I like to think that we all have a direct pipeline to God because He/She/It lives in us through us and AS us. How could we exist anywhere but in God? I guess in that sense I don't believe in Hell or even evil as a place but as a state of mind.
As for that metaphysical principle about getting what you expect I have experimented wuite extensively with it and I find it is GENERALLY true if I can get my thoughts AND my feelings in sync. If I'm feeling good and I pray for Good things to happen they tend to show up (NOT necesarrily to my specifications) But if I am in a bad place emotionally and I pray I don't get alot of relief, and sometimes get an opposite reaction. One of the things I do to deal with this is use affirmations to create a positive emotional reaction and then I pray. I start with statements of truth about God. Like god is Love, God is Peace, God is Joy, god is Life, God is abundance and the Source of all that is. Then I go to affirming my oneness with God. for example, the Peace of god is my Peace, the Love of God expresses in me and through me now, I am abundanlty supplied and provided for in all ways and in all things,The Mind of God is my mind, and it is god thinking my thoughts. I do this untill I notice that I feel lighter, easier or more calm emotionally, I say these things in one form or another untill I FEEL it enough to believe it and THEN I pray. Thats when I know that I WILL get what I expect. This method of prayer is called affirmative prayer or spiritual mind treatment.I think it took me about 2 years to notice a real shift in my life and mental perspectives, but when I finally NOTICED what had happened in a relatively short time(compared to 10 years of rather painful and unproductive therapy) I was convinced it worked.
You mentioned something you called process new thought, I am curious what that is because I've never heard it called that before. And all I can say is cherish those moments of connection to God wherever you find them, in paved roads or found keys...your relationship is more mystical than intellectual...enjoy it because most people can't conceive of God as personally as a lover or life partner and it seems to me you do. By definition your description of your connection IS mystical and very beautiful. Most people search for THAT sense of God and never get more than a glimpse or two.
My favorite poet is Hafiz, a sixth century Sufi mystic who wrote poems about God that make romance novels seem tame.He absolutely says God is like an insanely besotted Lover who wants to make love to us endlessly by giving us little gifts all day trying to get our attention...personally I find ideas like that far more True than all the theology the experts crank out.

wow. thanks for your heartfelt thoughts.

well,in a way i do think i'm a mystic,but i dont' like to quite label myself that way because it makes me sound like i'm better and i already think i'm better way too often and i know that's a mistake!

i'm glad you kind of know what i mean,and i'm glad you told me what has worked for you. therapy has been very frustrating for me,especially lately,as i quit my last two therapists. i've been trying to work on cognitive and spiritual stuff while i'm not feeling too depressed. it's hard to define if i'm always depressed. according to the last two therapists,i have both chronic and clinical depression. when the last one told me i had clinical depression,i just laughed and said i'd felt much worse. which i suppose doesn't mean i don't. ultimately,though,it doesn't matter what i tag myself with,but what i do. these days i see myself with a tendency towards depression. it can snag me fast and easily sometimes. and yet...i think our minds can be changed by how we practice thinking,even if it takes longer than drugs do. i often have a hard time in winter,so i'm trying to take advantage of working on this whenever i feel mentally well enough. i'm glad to hear that you've had success with the spiritual mental treatment. that gives me hope!
i am somewhat familiar with science of mind,but i've never read the whole book. i really like florence scovel shinn's the game of life. i'm starting to read science of mind magazine again and i really like that one. sometimes when i'm depressed it just frustrates me though.

process new thought is derived from the process theories of alfred north whitehead. i cant understand his books though! there's a couple of folks who have a website and i've read a couple of their books. the books seem easier to comprehend
and i think they're pretty good. the whole concept is not that easy for me to understand but i'm interested so with time i will probably understand more! these folks have a website at http://www.neweverymoment.com if you want to check it out. they also have a general new thought site at http://www.websyte.com/alan hope i got that second one right!

another book that i've read a bit of and think is pretty good is process theology by john b. cobb,jr. and david ray griffin.

there's also a website on process studies but i dont' know the url offhand. this theory has an interesting notion of time. they dont think time is an illusion. also,they believe in panentheism,rather than pantheism. they don't believe that God is IN everything,but that everything is IN God which i don't totally understand but it's interesting.

i do notice that i have to get myself feeling better or it's hard for good things to come my way.this frustrates me and makes me think God doesn't understand my depression just like a lot of people don't! but maybe someday i'll understand more of the whys.when i'm depressed it's hard enough just to stay alive. anyhow...

i LOVE hafiz. i dont' know if you know about

sufipoetry. amal puts lots of rumi and hafiz stuff on that journal.

i like the sufi idea of the beloved and can understand the yearning for God. i also have a book by marc gafni which is about jewish spirituality and about how desire is a good thing. but i also understand and have been greatly helped by buddhist ideas...which have the opposite view of desire! a paradox i'd like to reconcile. which reminds me,one of my favorite books is the alchemy of opposites by rudolfo scarfallotto. i find it disturbing that it's out of print but at least they're are still used copies kicking around on amazon and i'd imagine other places.

it occurs to me that maybe not everyone feels the need to sense the existence or presence of God,but i do. maybe some people have faith and other's have knowing and different things work for different people.just pondering...

this exchange is enjoyable. thanks. hope i'm not too overwhelming!

No you aren't overwhelming. The proper term is refreshing actually. I have been incredibly frustrated about my lack of connection with various people in my life over this particular topic the past year.I find it completely ironic that my personal relationships have become so incredibly passe and superficial at the outset of my entering ministerial studies. It's as if everyone thinks I will somehow become too holy or sanctimonious or something, so no one will discuss these spiritual ideas or experiences with me any more. I have become incredibly isolated from my closest companions as a result. Even my fellow students are reticent about their views and experiences. It's like a bunch of college students regurgitating the professors words to get an A. I miss the originality and uniqueness of people sharing their own ideas.And I am especially disheartened by what has happened in my relationship. Somehow, I have become a source of constant friction and unmet expectations since entering seminary studies. Somehow I am supposed to be perfect now. And I experience alot of criticism and character assasination masquerading as "feedback " and "things I've noticed". Sometimes I wonder if I made a mistake, I actually wonder if this whole entering the ministry wasn't MY form of spiritual arrogance and not a legitamate call to ministry. I feel like I've lost my sense of connection because the reactions of those I love most have been deeply hurtful and upsetting to me.Every attempt to talk about this problem has been met with constant accusations, turning things around on me and calling me everything from a hypocrite to a liar and back.
So no you are not overwhelming to me at all.reading your posts have been a pleasure, and sharing has been a much needed outlet.thank you.
BTW my name is starla.

hi starla,
what ministry are you studying for? that's very intriguing to me as i've considered doing that. at one point i thought of becoming an episcopal priest. now if i considered it would be along the lines of a new thought minister. i dont' know if i could commit,though...i keep changing my mind! a few months ago i seriously considered going back to attending the catholic church and was also very interested in the orthodox church,so i'm all over the spectrum. i guess the nexus of what my values are remains the same,though.

i wonder why all these people have had such strange reactions to you studying for the ministry. was it a surprise to them? people are funny about discussing spiritual matters,though it sounds like the same people who once discussed it with you now are weird about it,if i'm reading this right.

and i must wonder about the motivations of your fellow students. it's like i'm astonished when i ask my dad what the diagnosis was when he went to have a dr. look at his swollen foot. 'i don't know'...he says,'he just told me to do such-and-such.' ha!
when i go to the dr. i want to know every possible angle. one time recently i had a sinus infection and had some questions and i was practically running out the door after the doctor because i still had questions to ask. so,i'm like that with spiritual stuff too...perhaps even more so!

you know,i of course dont' know for sure,but i have a hunch that your friends and especially your partner are threatened by the fact that you're making God a priority in your life (as i assume you are,seeing as you want to be a minister? one should never assume,though!)

i don't have a significant other (i'm more neurotic than woody allen but i like to think there's still hope for me!) but i think about relationships a lot. recently i saw a quote by stephen levine,who does spiritual relationship workshops with his wife. it was something on the idea of,in relationships,God should be more important than your partner. of course this seems pretty radical,but i've been chewing on that thought for a while. but it does makes sense,as i think of God as love and love as a value is more important than anything. because if you don't have love,you actually have less to offer a partner or partners. so if you consider God first,it benefits both yourself and anyone else anyway!

as that is the case,for me to have an intimate partnership with someone,it would be important to me for it to be with someone who feels the same way. unless you find someone who doesn't feel threatened that they are not 'first'. and i dont' know if that's possible. as it is,very few humans are in relationships that aren't partly out of NEED.

well,i just like to theorize,and that could just be a crackpot theory. it also doesn't take into account the complexities of polyamory,of which i know little,and since i get jealous if someone i have a crush on looks at another girl,(that is way too neurotic and i'm trying very hard to chip away at that sort of immense insecurity) obviously i'm not in a position to deal with that kind of situation. so if what i'm saying sounds absurd,feel free to just dismiss it. i have lots of crazy ideas...some are brilliant,and some are just plain stupid!

i don't know for sure,but i don't think wanting to be a minister speaks of spiritual arrogance. i think that what you are doing is threatening to lots of folks around you,and it's THEIR problem but sadly it has made things much more difficult for you. now what are you supposed to do about that,if anything? there are probably a lot of different answers to that and you know best what will be the solution for you.

really,i am sorry that you are having such a hard time of it right now and i hope you are gifted with grace soon and get a little break and some clarity.

take care,
diane

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shoulds and suggestions

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